We'll talk about Congress of Racial Equality, and who were some of the key players in CORE that you can recall, and that you feel had made significant contributions? >> One of the persons who was actually involved in the founding of CORE was James Farmer. And that CORE was founded in Chicago by the 1940s, actually by 42. And it was founded by both black and white people and they decided that they would actually work on desegregation and integration of different places. And it was a small group. They never did have membership for example, like the NAACP. And they wanted to illustrate the fact that the opportunity for us to make the change would not be neglected as ordinary individuals that did not want to simply depend on the courts. But like the NAACP, they did go to court. And they did file suits and that kind of thing, and they were based mainly in the north until 1960s when they decided to go on that freedom ride, and to test the interstate travel. They're mainly known for that, but they've also integrated restaurants and places. And my particular involvement with CORE was, I was a representative from Nashville to a workshop that CORE sponsored in Miami, Florida, South Florida. And the whole idea was the interracial action workshop. That's what it was. So it was interracial and it was talking about interracial action. That the different races would take together. And it was one that was designed to give people practical experiences. There was a fellow from St. Louis who had not had the experience of leading a demonstration. So, after we finished our workshop, we decided to go and have a sit in, okay? It was a place called Shell City. And what we were gonna do is simply test a facility. And then when we were faced with the rest, we would leave. And then have our workshop to do role play, like we did in Nashville. I was representing the Nashville group there, in Miami. Well, this particular fellow, instead of moving when the police came and demanded that we leave, he decided to stay there and commit civil disobedience. So we all end up in jail, instead of having a workshop in Miami. [LAUGH] >> Oh my gosh. Well, he was in it. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so it was very interesting that we stayed in jail that period of time. And we finally got out. But that's when I had the most intimate conversation with Martin Luther King. >> Okay. >> I had met him in Nashville, but this was during the break and we were rushing off. Martin Luther King was the resource person for the workshop. And we were rushing off to go to the beach during our break. And I had my towel and my bathing suit, and we were at this hotel. In fact it was called the Sir John Hotel. And when I was looking he was sitting there by the pool in shirt sleeve, and I looked around to see if anybody was gonna meet with him. And he was sitting there very quietly by himself. So I went over to him and I asked him if he had a meeting. And he said no, he was just relaxing and that kind of thing. I said do you mind if we talk? He said, no, not at all. And that was a defining moment for me at this CORE workshop. The two of us sitting by the pool and talking, and I got a chance to ask him a lot of questions. And we talked and he was just very free and with his conversation. >> You remember one of the questions you asked him? >> Yes I do. I wanted to get his take on the idea of civil disobedience. How is it that you're telling somebody that they are breaking a law by discriminating against you, and yet you're going to break the law and expect them to have respect for you? So that was one of the questions, even though I was involved in the sit ins and that kind of thing, I want to hear from a philosophical point of view. And I was asking the right questions, cuz Martin Luther King always thought on both sides. So I wanted to know how was he gonna explain that to people. That you're being disobedient at the same time you're expecting others to respect the law. The question, succinctly put, is breaking the law showing disrespect for the law? >> With the intent of changing the law? >> Yes the intent is to change the law, but if you disobey that law, then why would you criticize somebody else for disobeying a law that they didn't agree with? So I was interested in that discussion. And we had two hours to talk about it. >> Oh, boy. >> Yes. [LAUGH] >> That was transformative for you. >> It was, and I really appreciated it. >> CORE questions again. So what was CORE's contribution to the Freedom Rise of 1961? And the example we have is Journey of Reconciliation. And can you discuss the different workshops and trainings organized and headed by CORE? >> Yes, CORE had made sure that the people who were gonna go on an original ride would be trained in nonviolence. Because they did not have any guarantee that they were gonna be protected. And they knew going into the deep south, that there had been other incidents that had taken place where people had been killed for less. And so they wanted to take two buses, one Greyhound and one Trailways. And they were gonna go through the same states but different cities as they journeyed through there. So CORE played a key role and even in Montgomery, Alabama, when Glenn Smiley, who was with the Fellowship of Reconciliation, he also was supportive of CORE as well. And so, Martin Luther King had the benefit of the experience of others who had gone through this struggle, and also those that were heading major organizations that shared the same ideas and goals of Martin Luther King. So they were very supportive. Like for example, Bayard Rustin was there with Martin Luther King in Montgomery, Alabama. And Glenn Smiley was on that bus with Martin Luther King when they first desegregated. He's the white man with the hat on sitting on the bus next to Martin Luther King. And I had the opportunity to do some work with the Fellowship of Reconciliation as well. Because a lot of the people involved in CORE were products of the Fellowship of Reconciliation. Because that was an organization that was global at that time, international. And they were promoting peace and non-violence. >> So it was natural for the organizations to come together. >> Yes. The other thing was that, for example, in South Carolina, the groups that came out of that with CORE was very much a part of supporting those local groups. Like Glenda Gaither and Tom Gaither came out of South Carolina and they were at Claflin College. And so they had the benefit of that. And you had other groups that were organized by the NAACP on these college campuses. And also the group, like I mentioned in Nashville, came out of SCLC. So, all these different movements that took place had the opportunity of being exposed to the older existing organizations. So the contribution that they made was to prepare those students to get ready for the consequences of nonviolent protest.
