[MUSIC] I'm here today with John McBride, who is the founder and owner of Blackbird Studios, one of the foremost recording studios in the world. He's also a well-known audio engineer and a long-time production manager for Garth Brooks. As an engineer, he's worked both on the road and in the recording studio with people like Steppenwolf, Dave Stewart, Stevie Nicks, Yngwie Malmsteen, Joss Stone, Cameo, and of course, his wife, Martina McBride. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today. >> How'd you find out all that stuff? >> I looked you up. You're an impressive person. We are sitting here in this amazing complex that you have built from scratch. And I want to talk to you in a minute about the way that the business was built. But just so that our audience knows, some of the great rock, pop, and country music artists of all time have worked in these spaces, Pearl Jam, Black Eyed Peas, Kelly Clarkson, White Stripes, Dixie Chicks, Bruce Springsteen, Neil Young, Garth Brooks, Carrie Underwood, Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, Kings of Leon, it's an extraordinary- >> I'm not sure about Bieber or Bruce Springsteen, but it's possible. >> Well look, I got that from your website, so- >> Okay, well you know what? If they put it on there, if it's on the Internet, it has to be true. >> It has to be true. >> Yes. >> Are there certain projects that you're particularly proud of that have come out of this studio? >> Well, it's funny because I love the producers in general. I'm a big fan of producers. >> Mm-hm. >> Phil Ramone did a lot work here. Jacquire King, Joe Chiccarelli, Dann Huff, Nathan Chapman, a lot of great local guys and a lot of great producers that work all over the world. Ethan Johns, and they love coming here because people who love great audio they end up here because that's what we care about, we love great audio. >> Yes. >> And we set the bar high. >> That is true, and I want to to talk to you more about the engineers and the gear in a minute. But one thing that I want to focus on first, maybe, I love the story of how you began your career in audio. Can you tell us a little bit about how this all started and how you got to where you are? >> Well, I grew up in Wichita, Kansas. So of course, I had to be in the music business. >> [LAUGH] >> No question, I was born in the same hospital as Joe Walsh, which I'm kind of proud of. [LAUGH] He was born in Wichita, even though I don't, he admits him. When I first met him, I told him weren't you born in Wichita? And he goes, yeah, yeah. And I said, Wesley Hospital? And he goes, yeah! I go, well, me too! And he goes, third floor? And I go, I'm not sure. He goes, man, it's been like we've been brothers since the womb. And I thought, I love you, Joe. >> Good enough. >> He's such a good guy. But most of the greats are good guys, but I grew up in Wichita. And my dad brought home a Beatles record, and that was it. I heard that, and I thought man, this is incredible. And I always say it hit me in the DNA. >> Mm-hm. >> And it really did. I love music. And so I didn't really believe that I could ever have a career in music and make a living, because that's not what happens in Wichita, Kansas. However, as I got a little older, when I was about 20, I went to the bank, and I said I want to start a recording studio and I put together a nice little application and talked about competition and talked about this and that, and they laughed at me and said, come back some other time. It just wasn't going to happen. >> Right. >> And thank God, it didn't because if they would have lent me that 75 grand or whatever I was trying to borrow at the time, it was the 70s, so that was more money then. I'd probably still be in Wichita struggling to keep it together, and now instead, I'm in Nashville struggling to keep it together. >> [LAUGH] >> So it worked out perfectly. What I decided to do, since it was such a huge initial investment to start a studio, I thought, well, if I go the live route, I'm still working in music, and you meet people, and things happen. So I went to the Campus Credit Union at Wichita State, and I borrowed 6,000 bucks. And I bought a pair of speakers and a 12 channel mixing board, a biamp board, and a couple of mics, a 421 and a 58, and a snake and a stereo 10-band EQ. I went around to the burbs in Wichita and put up PA for rent. And somebody called, John Salem, I think it was. But anyway, so I started doing live sound, and there were a few music stores in Wichita, and I didn't have enough gear, but I could go rent from them. >> Right. >> I'd rent Yamaha 2115 monitors for 5 bucks a night each, and I found a way to make it work. And even though it was hard work and I was working a full-time job and doing audio at night and not getting enough sleep, things kept growing, and every penny I made went back in. And wherever I lived, the garage started off as the sound company. And later, when I actually got a warehouse, I slept there because who could afford an apartment and a warehouse, so anyway, but it all worked out. And then in the early 80s, after about four or five years, I'd gotten to where I had two full club systems and a third monitor system. And I thought if I could borrow some money, I could build a PA and be able to do a concert. And then we might make 500 bucks in a night, and wouldn't that be easier than killing yourself to make half that working five nights in a club? And so I talked to the bank, and they said, well, what you need to do is probably go through the SBA, the Small Business Administration, and let's see what happens. So six months later and an application that thick and I was trying to borrow 75 grand, and they came back, and they go, we'll make you the loan. But your parents need to put their house up as collateral, their only main asset, or their biggest asset. >> Wow. >> And our houses at the time was probably worth about 75 grand. And I went, well, man. So I went home, and I told my folks, I said, well, they said they'd do it, but this is crazy because they said, they need the house as collateral. And my parents said, well you know what, we'll do that. Now I had two brothers and a sister. >> My gosh. >> Well, whenever I tell this story around my kids, I go, don't think I'm as crazy as your grandparents, because I'm not putting the house. Anyway, but they did it, and I was able to start doing concerts. And that's what I did. You probably played at the Cotillion Ballroom. >> [LAUGH] Yes. >> I probably did 400 shows at the Cotillion Ballroom. Everybody from Metallica and James Brown to Diane Schuur and David Sanborn and Spirogyra, just all these great shows. David Allan Coe and BTO, Steppenwolf. That's the frontman of Steppenwolf, John Kay. So we Fear is a great motivator also, which I discovered after my, when you think about your parents being homeless, you will work some overtime. You know, you won't complain about it. And, in my opinion, if you're not obsessed with music, don't be in the music business, because it's tough and it's hard. But, if it's what you have to do, then that's what you do. And you know what? I may live in a box or a cardboard box but, I'm going to do what I love and that's what I've been able to do most of my life. And I'm very, very fortunate. Everyday I wake up and go, thank you God, that I'm going to make a living today in the music business. Because it's rare and it's hard and it's gotten harder. >> Yeah. >> So, anyway, so we, I start doing these shows and Steppenwolf, John Kay really loved, I did monitors, and he loved the sound he had on stage. And they hired us to do a tour. So then we got out and started doing a tour. And, things got better. Then in 1989, well I got married in 88, to Martina, which was wonderful. The way we met was we had built a little rehearsal room at the warehouse for bands that wanted to rehearse. And she was putting a band together. >> Wow. >> And then I had to chase her down for the money, and we kind of became friends. I'm kidding. >> [LAUGH] >> That's a joke. >> [LAUGH] >> But she was putting a band together and the band never made it out of the rehearsal room but, we met and hit it off and something happened and, you know, we fell in love or whatever and we ended up getting married in 88. So, in 89, I went out and did three shows as a sound company. Rick Crabtree had called me, I did a show with him at the Kansas State Fair or somewhere. And he goes, hey, I've got three shows with Ricky Van Shelton headlining, and can your bring sound? And I said, sure. And the opening acts were a guy named Clint Black, who was brand new, he was the middle act. And another brand new guy, Garth Brooks, was the opening act. So, we did these three shows and Garth didn't have anyone on the road except his band and Bob Doyle, who was his manager. So I ran front of house and one of my guys ran monitors. And, we hit it off also. And, after those three shows, Garth said, you know, man, I'm looking for a guy, and one of my guys wanted to get the job, and anyone who works with me if they can do better I encourage them to do that, because you never want to hold somebody back. And, so Dan went for the next week and toured with Garth and the guys. And they hit it off. He liked them, they liked him, and he moved to Nashville right away. Well a few months later, Martina and I moved to Nashville because we had been planning on that anyway, or she had. And that means I had planned on it too, you know. >> Mm-hm. >> [LAUGH] And, when I got to town, I called Garth and I go, hey, I got a warehouse over here and if you guys need a monitor rig or a place to practice, I won't charge you, you know, come on over and they'd come over and play and rehearse, and it was a good thing. And then anytime during 1990 or, yeah, 1990, basically that Garth could get my sound company to go provide sound, he'd call me and go, hey John, we gotta show in West Virginia, pays 1500 bucks. Now I've gotta truck it. >> Right. >> I've gotta get hotel rooms, I've gotta do everything, I've gotta have people with me, but we went, okay. >> Yeah. >> Don't say no, because no matter how shitty the gig is, something good can come from that. >> Yeah. >> Don was reiterated that same thing when he talked to one of our classes and said, every horrible gig I ever had, something great happened. Because of some terrible gig he had, he met Bonnie Raitt, ended up doing her next record, which was Nick of Time. And that's one of Don's claims to fame, you know? >> Right. >> He's a great guy and a talented guy, and- >> Yes. >> And has done very well. But anyway, so, did a lot of sound, you know, and then in 91, in the Fall of 1990, Garth kind of took off like a rocket. >> Yes. >> And everyone thinks it was Friends in Low Places, but I really thought it was The Dance and the video to The Dance. And his reputation for putting on a great show, which he does to this day. So, he took off like a rocket and in January of 9,1 he hired me as production manager. Because he didn't really have anyone at that point to do that job of kind of overseeing sound and lighting and staging and tracking and all the things necessary to go tour successfully. >> Mm-hm. >> And so in 91, we went out and did 80 shows or something, or a 100 shows, I don't know. And then in May of 91, Martina got a record deal, which is, you know, was huge, and I was so happy. And in the Fall of 91, Garth called one night and said, hey, will you guys come by the house? And we went over and we were just sitting around the pool or whatever, because he had already started making money and got a house with a pool. >> [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] And, he said to Martina, he goes, I gotta a favor to ask, would you mind opening up my tour next year? And she went, well, let me think about it, okay, I'll do it. >> Yeah. >> And so, here we are, a year and a half in Nashville, and I'm production manager for a huge act, probably the biggest even then, and Martina got a record deal. And I thought, only in the movies does this happen. But it happened to us in real life. So in 92, we went out and did 80 shows with Martina opening, and it was my sound company and, by the way, in 91, I called Garth and I go, dude, you're outgrowing me as a sound company because our PA didn't even fly at that point. It was all ground stack. And I go, you can either higher a big company or you can lend me some money to expand and he goes, you know, I'll lend you the money. So he lent me some money and we built a bunch of gear and we bought chain motors and we brought people in that we trusted that helped us, you know, figure it all out. And, starting in 92, man, we were on the road and it was great. And I was triple dipping. I was production manager, I was sound company, and my wife was the opening act. It was crazy. But it was fun. You know, we had a great time. And it's really fun when you're on your way up like that. And then when you get to the top, it's harder, because, you know, people expect more and, you know, they want bigger and better. [MUSIC] >> But one of the things I think is so great about your story is that once you did reach the top, you managed to always find new challenges for yourself and I imagine that building this place was part of that next vision. >> Yeah. >> Would you say that that's true? >> Here's what happened, Garth had lent me the money and then, and of course, when he made me that loan, I said, well, now that we have all this gear, I'm going to have to charge you more, so I can pay you back. So you know, that worked out somehow. And I ended up going back to the bank in 92 because I had other clients that I didn't want to lose. And so we needed to build some other rigs for these people, you know, guys like Charlie Daniels or Ricky Van Shelton, or whoever we were working with. And so, I went to the bank and borrowed more money, and then, you know, things were going great, and moving along, and Martina's career had started, and Come about 97, well 96 actually, I get a call from Troy Clare. Actually I got a call from Rocky Holman, who's a great, great audio guy, and a lunatic. And they need to have a movie about him, because he's insane, but in a good way. And he goes, you and Troy Clare need to get together. Because what you're doing, it matters. And what he's doing, they've been doing it forever. And they're the biggest sound company on the planet and blah blah blah. >> Mm-hm. >> So Troy and I got on the phone together. And I told him, well, my three problems with Clare or when I think of being together, your guys have bad attitudes. That was number one. Number two, your pricing is insanely high on some things and insanely low on others. And that really drives me insane because I don't get it. And number three, you're so big, if you want to make a change, it's massive and complicated. And Troy said, you know, I understand exactly what you're saying. And we're always working to get our attitudes better. And we're doing this and we're doing that. And anyway, we ended up, I sold my company to Clare. Of course I talked to Garth first and I go, these guys want to do this. Now, I never considered really doing it at first because I thought the dice are hot, why put them down. We're making a great living, things are going great. But then one night [LAUGH] I was out in the garage messing around, and a month or two before that, I'd had an intermittent circuit in the house. And I took the front off the breaker box, and I was checking, making sure all the everything was tight, whatever. And of course in my stupidity, I never put the cover back on. And I'm out there messing around, and I slipped and I caught myself and my hand was inside the breaker box. >> And my thumb was about that far from the hundred amp hot rail. And I thought, you know if I would've been that far up, I'd be dead right now. And Delaney was just born. She was born in December of '94. So my year and a half year old would be without a dad and Martina. She really wouldn't have seen the benefit of all this hard work and pain and gnashing of teeth that I've done with the sound company at that point. It probably wasn't worth enough to really benefit her. And then the next day I called Troy and I said, you know what, let's do this. So, we got together and we talked and we got lawyers involved and three months later I call Troy and I go, fuck these lawyers. These people it's what if he does this? What if he does that? What if he does this? I said if he going to do those things, I wouldn't be getting in bed with the guy in the first place. I mean, I grew up in the Midwest, when you say something you kind of honor your word. >> Yeah. >> But welcome to the world. No one does that. Everyone's litigious and will screw you in a heartbeat, etc., etc., etc. So I called Troy and I go, let's just forget the lawyers. And he goes you're on. And then he, we'll do it on a handshake. I go that's great. >> Great. >> A couple days later he calls me back and he goes, well, unfortunately, we're borrowing the money that we're going to use for this acquisition, or some of it. So the bank has to have a contract, I went, okay. >> Right. >> And you know what, we kind of went, he told his lawyers, don't do this, and I told my lawyers, don't do this, and let's just get it done, and we did. And never once in 18 years or however long it's been, have I looked at that contract. Because I didn't need to, because Troy Clare, and he's as real as a day is long, and I love him. And so anyway, that all worked out. >> Yes. >> So now it's 97, we have no debt. I've gotten in this money, I've got more than a million dollars and it's totally disturbing to me, I'm totally unfamiliar with this territory. I don't have the fear driving me. We paid off the house and the car and we had no debt. And we'd have money laying around and I thought, this is ridiculous. And was kind of just lost for a year or two. And then I thought, you know, I really always wanted a studio. Martina's career was starting to kick into gear around then also. And so around 2000, I started thinking about a studio. >> Mm-hm. >> And I've always wanted a studio, because it's kind of the creative womb where a lot of great things happen. And music gets made, and music that can change the world gets made. >> Mm-hm. >> And that matters to me. It matters more than most things. And I always say there's nothing like a tracking session. Because you go in that morning, and there's nothing. And you leave that night, and there's a song or two that could change the world. What's better than that? It's like having a baby, you know? This kid could change the world. It's changing my world. And being involved in music was very important. And I'm not a player, and I'm not a singer, and I'm not a songwriter so engineering made sense. And I don't mind, I love being behind the scenes. I love being around. And 100 years from now, if a great piece of music has my name on it, or even Blackbird's What's wrong with that? You know, it's a bit of a legacy or whatever and one in a million people might ever even cross my name in the future, but that's okay. I knew that because we created this place, music got made that was maybe better than it would've been. >> Yes. >> Because people were inspired, and they had all the tools to do the job. And I always say I look at the artist and the producer and even the engineer as painters. And I want to give them every color on the palette. I don't want to limit what they can do creatively because the studio doesn't have Two Ursa Major Space Stations and DeltaLab Acoustic Computer and a two inch tape machine, you know. And I'm an emotional cripple also. >> [LAUGH] >> No I am, and if someone came to record here and they weren't happy, I would be putting my toe on the trigger. But when they're happy I'm walking on air. And I want people to come in and have a great experience. So we kind of overcompensate a little bit probably. We have a lot of equipment. We have a lot of great gear. We have a lot of great consoles, we have a lot of great rooms. We have fourteen hundred microphones of which a thousand are vintage and four hundred are newer. But I wanted to give them every color on the palette. >> Yes, let's talk a little bit more about your facilities and the gear that you have here. Both in Nashville and in the US and internationally, you're sort of famous for having just museum quality gear. In combination like you say outboard gear and microphones and guitars and drum kits and you know anything that a musician any musician I can think of would want But also, you've got a lot of modern and sort of cutting edge stuff in combination, too. And so, I want to talk to you maybe first about the spaces, and then about the gear, because a lot of the spaces that you have here are built for live tracking. And can you tell me a little bit about how you decided to build out the rooms here at Blackbird. Well, Nashville is one of the last bastions, where everyone shows up at the same time to make a record. Or that happens more here than anywhere else. And I'm very proud of that. There's so many incredible players in this town. It's unbelievable. I'm glad I'm not a guitar player, because I know that the guy parking my car at the restaurant can play his ass off. And you know what, for me to even pick up a guitar would be a mistake. [LAUGH] I mean really, because there's so many great players here, and there's great song writers, and there's great engineers, and there's great producers. It's just Nashville, and I'm not trying to, I don't want anyone else to move here, because we already have too many people, and the traffic is starting to suck. [LAUGH] So don't come here. But, we've got every facet of the music business here. We have record labels. We have booking agencies. We have management companies. We have publishing companies. We have so much history here, and so many great players, and every aspect of the music business is here, and I love that. And to be successful in music, I would recommend being where it happens. Because you can play at a club here in town, and you never know if Scott Borchetta, or Joe Galliani, or someone, or Mike Duncan or whoever it's going to be in the crowd, or hear about it, come see you and the next thing you know, you've got a record deal. It's really amazing here. It is. One of the other things about Nashville, which I feel I gotta bring up is that at the end of the day, nothing, and I mean nothing is more important than the song. It's a song town. You can take a great song and record it on a cassette deck in your bathroom. And someone's going to hear that song and go, I'm cutting this song. Or someone's going to go, we have to have that song, and let's go record it right, or whatever. But you could take an average song, and spend a million dollars on it in the studio. And it may sound like a great record. But at the end of the day, it's still an average song. I mean, there's a lot of songs in this town where, if they were swimming pools you'd hit your head on the bottom, all right? [LAUGH] They don't go much past the surface, if you know what I mean. Mm-hm. And I always say that good is the enemy of great. And it is. because we're tempted to take good, and good ain't good enough. It's not good enough. I'll tell you that. There's a million good songs out there, and I won't spend a penny. If I hear a great song, I'll stab you in the neck to get that song. I want that song, I gotta hear it. Yeah. [LAUGH] I've gotta have it, and unfortunately I'm not a streaming guy, I want to have my hands on something. I don't care if it's a CD. I'd rather it be a vinyl record. But I love being able to listen to anything I want to listen to any time. Yeah. And that's important to me. [MUSIC] Tell me about your favorite way to record that song that you've got your hands on now. That you heard something that sparked your interest, and then now you've got the greatest facility that anyone could want. What's your favorite way to get in there and turn that into a recording that everyone loves? Well, number one, have a great producer. And have great players. And everything else kind of falls into place. But fortunately, because of what I'm around and what I get to do, I know what mics I like the best on a kick drum or a snare, or toms, or overheads, or room mics for guitar, or acoustic, or piano. Whatever you're recording, or vocal. I mean, we're getting ready to do vocals later today with Martina. Now, because I've heard a million vocal chains, and I've experimented with them myself, I found the perfect microphone for her voice, and the perfect chain to make her sound like she does. because, it's a gift from God what she has. And I don't want to do anything to lesson that. Right. And there's a particular Telefunken 251, serial number 584 that only get's used by Martina, because that mic was just, and we have 25 251's but that's the one. Wow, mm-hm. There's no question, for her that is the mic. And a Motown EQ, and a Fairchild 660. And a Telefunken V-76 M mic pre. Because those, that chain sounds great on her. And it's really amazing. And when you get the right mic in front of the right input, my God, magic happens. Do you think that each great singer sort of has their own chain of mics and pre-amps? I don't know how many of the singers themselves are actually aware of what they're using. Mm-hm. But I think that if they have something they love, they probably associate it with whoever their engineer is. And they go, when I cut vocals next, I need him, because to me this sounds inspiring in my headphones. Mm-hm. And I'm going to sing better when I'm inspired, and I'm going to play better when I'm inspired. And the whole session kind of goes like that. Right. Speaking of inspiration, there are people who would argue that, there are plugins that could substitute for a lot of the wonderful. Those people can't hear, okay? Can you say more about that? Here's what I'll say. I'm not going to tell you that every plugin sounds bad. I'm not going to say that. I will not say that. because that isn't the case. Digital technology is getting better and better, and better, and thank you God, that it is, because 20 years ago it really did kind of suck. Yeah. And today it's much better than it was. And someday, it might be up to where analog is, I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I'd say 10 years anyway. But we'll see. I don't know, I hope. 192 case sample rate is pretty great. It's way better than 48k. And 24 bit depth and what's the magic number, is it 768k with 48 bit depth and this is going to sound just like analog. Yeah. And then the converters are getting better, and everything's getting better, and thank God it is, because the music is much more emotional. The better the quality at which you listen. Listening to a song on my computer through the little computer speakers, I'll go yeah, that's all right. And then I hear it in a control room, through great speakers at a high sample rate and I'm crying like a little girl. Because it's just as twice as emotional when you hear it properly. And I don't know about you but I listen to music, it's emotional to me. It either makes me happy or sad or melancholy, or angry, I mean, shit, that's life. And so if I understand you correctly, you're saying that great audio quality, or less than great audio quality sort of puts a barrier between a person and their emotional response to music- Absolutely, no question about it. Yeah. And, When you take a Fairchild plug in for instance, a Fairchild's a compressor. And for those of you who don't know anything about audio, if someone's singing a song and they whisper part of it and they scream part of it. Don't you know I love you. [LAUGH] Well, to get the don't you know to come through, you've got to really open up your microphone and then when he screams, or she, it overloads everything and distorts and. >> Yes. >> Scares people. [LAUGH] Like that. Sorry. >> Yeah. Overloads that mic I'm sure that will be fun to hear. >> I should have jumped up and just got right on the mic. [LAUGH] What kind of compressor are you using? [LAUGH] >> We do it artificially. [LAUGH] >> Of course you do. [LAUGH] >> We don't have a choice. [LAUGH] >> You know, I would've gladly patched in a Fairchild compressor on that mic for you. >> A lot of times it may not necessarily be because they can get better audio quality. But let's say they're in the studio for a few days, and they know they have to go home to work on this. They want to be able to have the consistency, so they'll use a plugin even in the studio when there's a real one right there. >> And it's kind of like digital photography. Its not the same as film. You know that really bothers some people and it doesn't bother other people. It really just depends on your level of awareness about it you know? >> Mm-hm. >> Do you love black and white film or do you love, whatever the, I don't even know how many millimeter, well anyway, do you love this, or do you love a digital representation of that, or do you just not care that much? I mean I'm sure that MP3s don't bother a lot of people. But to me one of the biggest mistakes was when the public accepted MP3 quality over what we've had in the past, which is such better quality, you know? >> Mm-hm. >> And I'm so encouraged and so happy now because vinyl is making a come back and the digital scene is getting better, you know? >> Mm-hm. >> And so apparently quality does matter to people or I want it to. Cause it should. >> Yes. >> It really should >> What do you say to a musician or a producer who says man, boy, I would love to come to your place or a place like it but I just can't afford it. What do you, how do you make your choices, I guess, as an independent or smaller time musician when it comes to audio qualities? >> Yeah, I guess it's really, it's all, things happen out of necessity or out of choice. What are your priorities? To me, even if you're going to work on a record at home, at least try to find a way to track it in a real studio. >> Yeah. >> Because that's going to lay the foundation that is really good quality. >> Yeah. >> And then you do overdubs at home easier than you can or not effect the quality as much as you would doing everything at home. >> Mm-hm. >> I mean one of the advantages to recording in a real studio is the rooms, the design of the rooms. They're meant to at least be accurate or as accurate as possible. The rooms in which you record should be designed to sound great, and hopefully do sound great. The level of gear that you're able to use at most studios is higher than the level of gear most people work with at home. >> Yep. >> And it enables you to really, and really it depends on the kind of music you're doing also. >> Mm-hm. >> If you're recording a live band, find a way to track at a real studio. At least lay the great foundation. You know? >> I'd like to add too, and wonder what you think, in addition to the rooms and the spaces and the gear, the personnel that you will find. >> Right. >> The engineers that you'll find at a professional studio will elevate your music. >> They should. >> And so I want to ask you about your staff or the people who engineer your records here. What makes a great audio engineer, what can studios like your give to bands? >> Well you know one of the great things is like I said we have an incredible selection of gear. And that can be a blessing and a curse, because you may come in as an engineer and go, I always wanted to try an RCA BA-6A on a snare drum. I always wanted to try a C60 in combination with the 57 on a snare drum, or I always wanted to try C12s on the overheads, or I wanted to do this or that. And you could end up spending a week on a drum kit if you want, you know. [LAUGH] >> Yeah. >> So a lot of engineers, they remember everything that they do generally and they find certain things they really love that create a certain sound or a certain vibe. And so we have all those tools and toys for them to recreate what they love so much, hopefully. >> Yeah. >> And at the same time, those sounds are inspiring to the players as they're playing. And you know, it might go from a gold to a platinum record because god, he played it better. because at the end of the day, you're dependent on what's on the other side of that microphone. >> Right. >> Don't kid yourself. [MUSIC] >> So I want to ask about that hands on experience that you're able to provide to people through the Blackbird Academy, too. >> Yes, well to give you a quick history of the Blackbird Academy. We've had a lot of interns here at Blackbird. We have nine rooms. We need a lot of help. And we take in a certain number of interns, and they're all graduates from either four year colleges or two year programs or trade schools. Or they come from all over the place, all over the world. And six or eight years ago Vance, Pyle, and I are sitting up front. And we're waiting on somebody to bring something, or something, I don't know. And there were four interns up there and we started talking about audio, because that's what we love. So the question comes up what's your favorite kit drum mic, to the interns. And the answers I got, it shocked me really. One was I really didn't get to mic a lot of drums. And I go well, but you graduated from an audio school, you know? Well yeah, but you know. Well what's your favorite neve channel? Well we didn't have any neve channels. We have plugins. And I go man! And it just totally blew my mind how little these guys knew and how little they were being prepared for the reality of trying to work in the studio. >> Mm-hm. >> And then I found out what they owed on student loans and what have you, and man, it added insult to injury. And I thought this is not right. Now, I could whine about it or I could do something about it. And one of my other stupid little mottos is death to whiners, because no one likes a whiner. I'm sorry. >> It's true. >> Nobody wants to be around people that whine. >> It's true. >> At least I don't. >> [LAUGH] >> And so I started figuring out a way to start a school, and we started the Blackbird Academy. I called Merc Ruble first, and then I got a hold of Kevin Beca, people that I really respected that were in education and great audio guys. And we got together and we started developing a curriculum. And one of the mantras was the greatest education in the shortest amount of time for the least amount of money possible. And we came up with this Blackbird Academy thing. It's a six month course, it's $21,900, which isn't cheap by any means. But in comparison to most programs, it's fair. And it is an intense, incredible experience. But if you don't want to be in audio, don't come here. because I don't want to waste your time and I don't want you to waste mine. >> Right. >> But if you want to be in audio, come here. We have two programs, we have a live program and we have a studio program. There are ten jobs live for every one in the studio. This is the reality of today we still get way more applicants for the studio program than we do for the live program. 95% of our live graduates are gigging. And they're on tours like Luke Bryan and Tim McGraw and Elliott who does monitors for Chris Stapleton he's 19 or 20 years old. I mean you come in with the right attitude, because attitude is 99% of the gig. You gotta have a great attitude. >> Yes. >> And you have to have a little passion and we'll get you your talent. >> Right. >> We'll train you. >> Can they live with you on the bus? >> That's correct. >> Are you going to drive them crazy in the control room? Right. >> Those are the things that cannot happen. >> [LAUGH] >> And we focus a lot on etiquette a lot at the Blackbird Academy because people want to be around people they like. >> Yeah. >> And you know, that's so important. And I've been told by people who know more that I do that generally when you get interviewed for a job In 30 seconds they know whether or not you're going to get hired. And if you make a bad first impression, man, sorry. But if you make a great first impression. I'd rather take a guy with a great attitude and less talent than a guy whose the greatest in the world and is a total ass. >> Yeah. >> Any day, I'd rather have that. >> That has been my experience, too. That gut feeling about people is such an important part of the music industry in general. Do you think that that's true in other industries, or do you think that because we work in an emotional? >> It's true in everything. >> Yeah, do you think it's more true in the music business because we have to make? >> Maybe, because people in the music business are a little left of center in general, a little more emotional, maybe, a little more emotionally crippled or whatever, like me. I don't know, but it really does matter. >> Well, you have to get to a vulnerable place in a recording studio. >> That's true. >> You have to be around people you trust in order to make good music ethic too. >> Or music that means something. >> That means something, yeah. >> And the other thing is, the first thing I tell my students is, attitude is 99% of the game. I'm not just talking about in the studio or on a bus I'm talking about with your parents or your siblings or your partner or your friends or whoever. You have the right attitude, if the only thing you learn in these six months is how great a difference in the quality of your life a great attitude's going to make. Then you know what, I'm not going to look at it as a failure ever. If you don't learn that, well God help you. Because I don't care how good you are, you're not going to work. >> Right. >> You've probably seen it, and I've seen it a hundred times, where people with great talent, either get fired, or don't get hired because- >> They're a pain in the Ass. >> They're negative. >> [LAUGH] >> And that's that's a drag man. >> I want to ask you a couple of questions that I'm asking all of the people that I speak with, sort of big picture stuff. The subtitle for this class is called what is music worth. And so I want to ask you a question about how values being assigned to music these days, about money and music, and whether you think that music is fairly valued today. Or what you think needs to happen in order for people to value music the way that it should be? >> Well, god that's a hard one. >> It is. >> Because music to me is priceless. I mean if you said, you want these $150 tennis shoes or you can buy 150 songs at 99 cents a piece. I go, well give me the songs, I'll go barefoot, I don't care. Music is a huge part of my life, and I love music. And I think it is for most people, even the ones that don't buy it. >> Yeah. >> But when it's so easy to get it for free, why am I going to spend money when I don't have to? That's what people think, and I think there was a brief period where people went, well, I spent 10 bucks or 15 bucks on this record and it has one good song. >> Yeah. >> Or two good songs. I feel like I got ripped off. Well, the best way to battle that is never spend another penny on that artist if you believe there screwing you. >> Mm-hm. >> Whatever, but there are so many great records out there that get illegally downloaded or never paid, the writers don't get paid, and the artists don't get paid. And what it's done, it's really hurt this business because people that are great at it can't afford to work in the business the way or make an okay living the way they once could. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And I know that there's always these big stars that are extravagant and blow billions of dollars and everything. And people look at that and go, I guess a lot of people think that's cool, but whatever. There's very few people that are wealthy from music. >> Right. >> Very few, there's a ton of people that are struggling all of the time to keep their head above water and just keep doing what they're doing. Because they're obsessed about it and they love it and they're great at it. But you know, they're only a niche market, you know? >> Mm-hm. >> And can barely make a living and that's why they're so many jobs live. Because the main form of income for most artists is touring. >> Mm-hm. >> And really, even in the 90s or when records were selling like crazy Still the best way to make money was touring. Whether anybody realizes that, I'm sure they do. But if you're able to sell 10 million records, then you probably made some money from the record company. Maybe a buck a record, if you're lucky, $10 million. But if you're selling 10 million records, you can make 500 grand a night even back then, touring. So go do a hundred shows make $50 million that year and $5 or $10 million from the record sales and you know what? Last time I checked, I'd rather make 50 than 10. [LAUGH] >> You know, whatever. >> Yeah. >> So everybody's touring and you can't rip off the live experience. I mean, you can watch stuff on YouTube, but there's a certain excitement that goes with live performance that can't be replicated by some download or streaming or whatever. A good TV show a good recording of a performance that's always nice. But you know, I want to be there. >> Yeah me too. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] The last question that I'm asking everybody that I speak with is what in your opinion from where you sit are the best things that people, our audience, which is international and so there are people all over the place that are going to be seeing this. And what can they do in their local communities to serve the cause of music, what are the best things that people can do to support either their local music communities or music in general? Well I would say the best way to support anything is if you spend a little money on it. Maybe going to some live shows, and there's a lot of tickets that are very reasonably priced and give you a nice evening of entertainment. And even if it's something that's outside of your wheelhouse normally, it's nice to stay open to things. Yeah. Because great music is great music. I'm not a huge rap fan, but Eminem, I buy those records, because you know what? This guy is really, really good at it. Mm-hm. And there's great country and great rock and there's terrible country and terrible rock too. It used to be we had gate keepers. I don't care how corrupt they were. The labels for a gate keeper is about what made it to the radio, and generally speaking, it was the cream of the crop. These days, anybody with a iPhone and that thinks they have talent can have videos on YouTube or on Facebook or whatever, on the Internet. That doesn't make them a star, that doesn't make them great. And never will. Another little fun saying I have here at Blackbird is either you rock or you suck. [LAUGH] Now all it means is do it right, or don't do it. If I am going to build a studio, I don't want to build an average studio. If this place were average, we'd have been out of business years and years ago. I still say it's one of the greatest and stupidest things I ever did from a financial point of view. But I don't really think I had a choice. I think I had to work in music and I really want to leave something behind and I really want to keep the bar up here, and that's part of the reason we started the academy. You know what a U47 on a great vocalist in a great room sounds like. Mm-hm. Now even if I'm now recording in my bedroom, I'm going to try to replicate that. Right. I don't want to settle for this. Right. An SM7, which is 300 and something bucks, with a Telefunken mic pre, which is not 300 bucks or more expensive. But an SM7 with the Telefunken B76 sounds about that close to a 251. And I'm not kidding, and that's scary because the 251's probably 15, 20 grand. And that mic is 300 and something dollars. So get an SM7 if you can't get a 251, and see if you can borrow a Telefunken mic pre or rent one for a day and get world class sounding vocals. because generally, the vocal is what's going to sell a record. Mm-hm. One other thing I want to bring up about the difference between recording in a studio and recording at home. If you want to record live musicians, go to a studio. If you're dealing in pop music and it's a bunch of samples, you know what, you can do that anywhere. And you can, but know the room you're in. So even if it's not a good room, at least you know when it sounds like this, and I go listen to it in my car, it sounds like this again. You need to learn your environment. Right. Well, and it sounds like you're saying too, you need to have put your hands and ears on the actual high quality gear so that you can tell the difference. So you realize the bar is up here. Because [CROSSTALK] if you don't know it's here, you'll be happy at here. And here, that's not good enough. And it's not. Especially I would imagine in a crowded marketplace like now. Yeah, well, it's funny, radio, even though it's not as large as it once was or as ubiquitous or whatever. Mm-hm. Still sells music better than any other format. And television also does well, but very rarely do you have a television show that features music so much. Like radio, that's all it features. Well they sell advertising by playing music the people want to hear. Right. Yeah. Right. So anyway, it's an interesting time. And I'm glad that our technology is getting better, and better, and better. You can come here and make a record as if it's 1962, or you can make a record like it's 2015 or 16 or whatever year this airs. Because, probably 16 obviously. Because we've got the best of the old and the best of the new. And it is a working museum. And I love that, I do. There's something beautiful about a Fairchild on a bass guitar. There's something beautiful about a Fairchild on about anything. But unfortunately, what do you want, a house or a couple of Fairchilds? I mean they've gotten so expensive, it's really prohibited, so. Well, I've had the great pleasure of working in this studio a few times, and I can tell you that the excitement and the happiness and the creativity of the musicians that come here, I mean, it feels great. So thanks for building it. Well, thank you. I mean, I'm so fortunate. We don't advertise, but fortunately, we make a good enough impression that people talk about it to other people in the business. Probably 25% of who comes to Blackbird is from its international. We have Foy Vance back in D right now. James Bay just did his last record here. The Kings of Leon, who are from Murphysboro, which is 40 miles away. Yeah. Did Use Somebody and Sex on Fire and Crawl, and a lot of their great successful songs, they did them here, and I'm so glad. I'm glad that we were a part of it. And we had a South Korean punk band in for a month. The band Ghost did their last record here which is kind of crazy. We do a lot of records from Sweden and Europe in general, and South America, Japan. We've done a lot of Japanese records. Mm-hm. It's just really wonderful that people that love audio talk about it and that's, I think, why our phone still rings. Yes, John McBride making an argument for high, high quality audio and recording in a beautiful place like this. He is the founder and owner of Blackbird Studios here in Nashville, Tennessee. Check him out, check out the Blackbird Academy, and thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. I appreciate it so much, I know you're a very busy person. [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE]
