[MUSIC] In this video, we have an opportunity to learn from my colleague at the Indian School of Business, Dr. Dishan Kamdar. Dishan is presently a Professor of Organizational Behavior and Deputy Dean of Academic Programs at the ISB. He is a prolific researcher, an outstanding teacher, and an acknowledged expert in the area of negotiations. His various courses in the area of negotiation are hugely popular within ISB and outside. Dishan, welcome. What is negotiation? How do you define it? >> That is a good question, Rahm. Negotiation, in my opinion, is the art and science involved in getting to yes. It's about influence, it's about persuasion, it's about getting past no. There are differently terminologies used. But in my opinion, it's about how do you orchestrate that one-on-one discussion in such a way that both parties come out win-win, meeting their own objectives? >> Well, if negotiation's all about influence, what will be a few key mantras of influence? >> Well, there are many mantras involved. But I would say there are two very, very important aspects of influence of getting to yes. Firstly, we talk about selling solutions, we talk about selling value, all right? That's the starting step. But how do you identify value? How do you identify the right proposition for different customers? So, I think the first mantra for a good negotiator would be to have very, very good listening skills. In my opinion, most frontline managers are so bogged down in so many things that when they meet their clients, they're essentially not listening to them. They want their clients to listen to them, but the starting step would be for you to step back and be one of the best listeners possible. What would your client want, what would your vendor want, what would your subordinates want? And every client, every vendor, every subordinate wants different things, right? Gone are those days where one shoe fits all. Right, in this era, it's going to be customization. And the starting point for customization is understand customer value, value proposition, right? So I think the first step is being a good listener. Now if you do a dip stick check, if you ask people how many of you are good listeners? Well people say yes, this is if you're in the 90% of even CEOs are bad listeners. Now if 90% of CEOs are bad listeners, you can imagine as you come down the entire ladder of the value chain of the organization, most people are bad listeners. And then if you think you're a good listener, here's a follow up question. Whenever you are listening, are you listening to understand, or are you listening to respond, right? So some people might say, look, Dishan, I disagree with you, I'm a good listener. But then you will finally know that Breckett, you listen to respond. Your answer is already scripted before this person even talks, right? So you are essentially not listening. All right, now so I think that's the first mantra. Then you may ask me, then how do you become a good listener? Why are people bad listeners? I think there are a couple of reasons for being bad listeners. Number one, ego, overconfidence, I know it all, right? So at one stage, we say look, I know it all, I know what you want. And the other side, you say, look, the weather vane is always changing, and weather vane is dynamic. So you know it all, but it's no longer relevant today. Have you verified it, all right? So ego, right, so we need to basically be more grounded to be good listeners. Number two, we are bad listeners because our entire day is so cluttered. If you ask any friendly managers how many appointments, how many meetings do you have on a daily basis, they would say, you know, sir, I have eight more days, choco blocked, my day is packed. I think it is just bad time management and lack of prioritization, if you ask me. You're going to have to prioritize, we can then cut down the number of meetings that we have. Because if your day is choco block for example, you have eight meetings in a day, all right, or eight things that demands your attention. You're entering meeting number four, half of your mind is thinking about one, two, three. The other half is thinking about the next five meetings. You're always looking at your watch. When will this end? I'll just want to move on. I mean, if that's your calendar, you're not going to adjust your listening, all right? So clearing up your calendar and prioritization makes you a good listener. Another reason why we are not good listeners is because we generally, Do not respect the other person, and we do not have adequate data, all right? So that comes to my next point, all right? You asked for a couple of mantras, right? So the starting point is to be a good listener. A second point is to be data driven, all right? So line managers, when they go out, they negotiate. You ask them, do you have sufficient market intelligence of business intelligence data? Do you know the other party's walk over price? The other party's walk over price would be a function of what your competitors are offering. Do you have this data? Is this data updated? Most of them would say, no, I have a hunch feeling what the data looks like. The hunch feeling in this day and time, it's not enough, all right, you need to have very strong intelligence leader to be a good negotiator, to be a good influencer. Because unless and until I know what my competition is offering, what value they're offering, how can I then skip a better value proposition, right? So I think the lack of data, the lack of the need, or the will to acquire data, I think, is another missing link, all right? So data about my competition is important. Another data is about my alternatives. If you ask any influencer, any negotiator, what makes you powerful? And what makes you powerful is nothing, but your availability of alternatives. If there's no deal with Mr. A, is there a Ms. B, or Mr. B out there? Is there a Mr. or Mrs. C out there? Right, but we look for alternatives after a failed negotiation. I'm saying, where is the recreation? Right, your ability to influence just heightens with the availability of alternatives. Imagine the body language of someone with an alternative at hand entering a negotiation. Right, so I think that's the second point, the second mantra for success. First is be a good listener to understand value proposition. Number two, be data driven, right, so plan well. And you ask any line managers or even CEOs, what is the percentage of time you spend on planning versus the percentage of time you spend negotiating? You'll hear 80-20 principle, 80% negotiating and 20% planning, right? Because I spend only 20% planning, I haggle too much because I don't know when to walk away. But if you reverse that equation, if you spend 80% of your time planning for the negotiation, collect enough data, then I'm inclined to think you won't spend more than 20% at the table. All right, so being data driven, I think, that's the second key. All right, and you mentioned line managers. All right, and so I feel for line managers to be effective, they also need to identify allies who will do the talking for them. So, normally when we are trying to negotiate with someone, we plan the script, we prepare, we know this is the pitch. But do you know something? It is also very important to identify the person who delivers your message. 70% of the time, you should not be doing the talking. Your allies should be doing the talking. And what is the mistake we do? We talk all the time. We feel it's our responsibility to collect the deed, right? But no, identifying channel of influence, I think that's so important, but it is something that we just omit completely. >> Right. >> Those are the three important mantras among the numerous available out there. >> Okay, the idea that you mentioned about allies and all the lateral influence, that is quite fascinating. Can you give a concrete example, illustration, to say well, what is this all about? >> Let me give you my own personal example. >> Okay. >> All right, so I'm a single [INAUDIBLE] and back in 2004, there was this proposition to join Indian School of Business. And let me be very honest with you. At that time, ISB, so right now, we're a big brand name. At that time, ISB was like a startup, correct? And being in Singapore, I hardly knew what ISB was. It had strong expectations, great, but a lot of people call me a visionary. A lot of my students call me a visionary. And why they call me a visionary is because they thought that I could see ISB's future, ISB's growth. But Dishan, back then when everyone from India was moving to Singapore or US, looking for greener pastures, you being a Singaporean, you move from Singapore to India, and it is because you could see ISB's growth. You're such a visionary, right? So let me given you an internal scoop, okay? I'm not a visionary, okay? What brought me to India was a failed negotiation between me and my wife. >> [LAUGH] >> Okay, so back then, so my wife, she's from Puneeth, and this was an opportunity for her to be closer to her family, coming back to India. So she told me, look, Dishan, this is good for your career, why don't you just take the offer? And I said, look, you can't sniff through here, this is not about my career, you want to be closer to your family. So I told her, you know what, let ISB grow, let us wait for a few more years, and then if ISB picks up, then I can evaluate my [INAUDIBLE], and then I'll join after five years, right? And she kept on pushing, she kept on persisting. And I told her no, look, I've made up my mind. We are not going to do it, I'm not going to take up this offer. And then she backtracked, right? And but two days later, my dad called me up in his room, and he asked me this question, Dishan, what is this ISB? I said, Dad, how did you figure out what ISB was? He says that's immaterial. But I know that the Indian School of Business wants you there and wants you to join them. And [INAUDIBLE], we are from Gujarat, and it's important for us to give back to our country, and he gave me all that story, the emotional appeal. But end of the day, he told me, look, I am not requesting you, I'm telling you to join ISB. Try it out for a year at least. And the same information, the same request coming from my father means, I interpret it very differently than the same information coming from my wife, right? It was easier from my end to say no to my wife. But it was difficult for me to say no to my father, all right? And there you go, that is how I landed in ISB. Right, you see how genre of influence matters. Right, and you can think about numerous examples, right? I mean, if you are the vendor, for example, right, you are head of procurements, or you are head of procurement, what people do most of the time is, we try to jump this person. Right, I want to sell this product, and I said, boss, you are head of procurement. Why don't you buy this product because there are all this value and services, blah, blah, blah. Now, applying this strategy here of lateral influence, my effectiveness will be enhanced if I would have identified common people that we both know who's within the organization. Gone with that person and say, if you really like my product, why don't you tell the procurement guy? When the pressure comes from within, it's much more powerful when the pressure comes from outside, right? So similarly, so all line managers, this is not about line managers, this is about everyone, right? 70% of the time, your effective of influence goes up when you identify the right channel, who does the pitching for you. >> Well, we have covered a whole gamut of areas. But before we close, do you have some final words of advice for frontline leaders, who are the primary audience for this video? >> Sure, I think in closing, what I would like to say is remove fears. All right, many times, we fear about things that we can't control. So yes, front line manager, what are you fearful about? I'm fearful about rejection, right? Now why would you fear rejection? When your value proposition is not good enough and when your value proposition is not good enough when it's not planned. Right, so it comes back to my second point again that remember, if you know your walk away price, which is a function of your competition's pricing. When I said competition, I'm talking about apples and apples. I'm not talking about apples and oranges here, right? And if you have developed alternatives, that removes fear. Imagine my student at ISB enters a placement interview with another alternative. Another student entering a placement interview with a job offer at hand, you see the seat change now? The second student entering placement interview will have such a confident body language, and that person is fearless. And what in his fear is the alternative. So we need to get this right, yeah? So this is the first point, and I think in closing, especially line managers, what I would like to say is, don't worry too much about the other parts of games, all right? Many times, our decision to say yes or no is a function of the other party smiling. If the person is smiling so much, he or she makes a good value proposition to us. But you know what, [FOREIGN] all right? And because of that, I say no even to a very well proposition. Your decision to say yes or no should always be a function of the other party meeting your objective. When you entered a negotiation, you have an objective in mind. I want 5% margins from Ram Nadin. Now, Ram is a gracious human being. And he makes me an offer of 5.5% margins he gives me. I should be delighted, but he is smiling throughout. What is my natural tendency? Boss, not acceptable, and I'll make a proposition that gives me about 6%, 7%. And what is the reason for me to change my goal post? Because you are smiling too much, or he gives me too easily. Those are wrong reasons to say no. And those are the reasons we always say no for. All right, so you have to be mindful of not changing the goal posts. So before I enter the meeting with Ram, I have to collect my data and ask myself, what is the definition of a good deal? So that determines our expiration price. And I say, okay, fine, the definition of a good deal is 7%, [COUGH] irrespective of Ram's body language. If Ram gives me more than 7%, I will say yes. I will not bother about his games. All right, but we have a tendency of changing our goal posts. And if you are inconsistent, you confuse people. That is my final word of advice. >> Right, well, thank you so much, Dishan. >> Thank you. [MUSIC]
