[MUSIC] In the previous sequence, we spoke about the question of power and justice. I want to start with another example now to explore another level of complexity that we need to take into account when we're thinking of ecosystem services. Christian, you've been working on the question of governance of rivers, and in particular, the river which is just flowing out behind us here, off down through France to the Mediterranean, the Rhone River. And this is an interesting example, because we've got the whole question of scales, different countries, and the whole complexity of actors. Can you tell us just a little bit about this case? >> Well, so the Rhone is an international river shared by Switzerland and France, and it is quite interesting because it's a river with a long history where you do not have any international commission, which is responsible for the coordination of the river. Which means that you have a river producing different type of services with different consumer services, different sectors of activity, which needs to find a way to coordinate the use of the water. It's also the use of the other services such as, for example, sediments. How do you ensure the sediments flow across the borders? >> Why do you want them to flow? So it don't get stuck at the dams. >> The dams, exactly. >> The whole hydroelectric dams. >> Exactly, exactly. >> All right. >> And just this whole issue show how difficult it is to ensure coordination regarding the provision of services across boundaries. When you have multiple stakeholders, multiple institutional and regulatory frameworks. >> So in a sense, this is a way of thinking about the whole complexity of space. So because sometimes when we talk about ecosystem services, there's an assumption that there's a flat space where services just happen. >> Yeah, exactly. >> And this example shows us how that's actually of course more complicated then. >> Yeah, I mean, if you're working on ecosystem services, then you need to somehow reduce nature's complexity. You have to try to work on what is possible to measure and to get value on. And this shows that this is quite difficult because face is not flat, as you say. It's also a space where you have power relations, were you have trade-offs. So among multiple sectors, which need a resource, which need this different services. >> And presumably also,the data that is going to be collected across this complex scales, it's going to be different. The data produced in Switzerland, or in France, or from all the different actors is going to be also something that needs to be taken into account. >> Yeah, giving a value to nature and defining data in order to measure this value is very relevant. It opens the whole discussion on how to ensure the service, in the long-term, the whole question about sustainability. But on the other hand, data must be taken into account carefully, and with a critical perspective. Data also reflect the position of different cycles, the hypothesis, which are behind them all. >> So who's generating the data, in a sense, their agenda? >> Exactly, yeah. You will have total different data if you are trying to use the water in a productive purpose, like producing electricity. Or if you want to use the water in order to protect environment and biodiversity. So this production of data must be taken with a critical perspective in the states in order to really understand what it means and how the service is defined. >> And so then, how you can use it in somehow balancing interests and. >> Yeah, exactly. Data reflects also trade-offs. And also, power relations among different perspective of nature and on the services. >> And so when you have an international perspective, the whole scales, so you got the local scales, regional scales, national scales, international scales. >> Then you have a really created complexity because you have different regulatory frameworks, different stakeholders, which are not necessarily coordinated. And then you have to find a way to find coherence for this common systems, but also to ensure a really proper coordination between the different users with really different objectives, obviously. Using the water for producing hydropower, you will need water at a certain time. If you need the water to produce nuclear energy, then you will need always the same amount of water. So this is really two modalities of use, which are always difficult to coordinate. >> And obviously then the actor somehow negotiate who gets to use what water, when. >> Exactly. >> So in this sense, what we have to learn form this is the question of scale is going to be crucial and that the scale is multiple levels. And this somehow complicates the idea that services happen in a flat space. And then again, the question of power here. The dynamics between countries, between different actors at different levels, in the use of a particular service. >> Exactly. And the perspective, and the critical perspective of data, which is also crucial. >> Exactly. >> Related to these different trade-offs that you'll find behind to use the different services. >> Thank you. >> Welcome. [MUSIC]